UK politics

Not cycling, but still important.
Iris
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 698
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by Iris » 7 months ago

The Real Ravenhurst wrote:
7 months ago
And he's wrong to think they trusted Johnson any more - they don't trust anyone.
Follow the link in the article. That particular claim derives from an opinion poll in which a very specific question was asked.

There is only one man to blame for the widespread contempt in which Corbyn is held. His name is Jeremy Corbyn.
0 x

User avatar
The Real Ravenhurst
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 321
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by The Real Ravenhurst » 7 months ago

Iris wrote:
7 months ago
Follow the link in the article. That particular claim derives from an opinion poll in which a very specific question was asked.

There is only one man to blame for the widespread contempt in which Corbyn is held. His name is Jeremy Corbyn.
My contention isn't based solely on Chakrabortty's article. I've obviously been watching the moving goalposts of the campaign against Corbyn very closely for some time, but more immediately, the impression from knocking on doors is that dislike of Corbyn is quite common (although fierce hostility less so) but nowhere near as common as the conviction that 'they are all in it for themselves' or 'it doesn't make any difference' or 'I think we should just get Brexit done'. But where people do want to talk about Corbyn, the things they say are straight out of the attack-on-Corbyn headlines, so I think it's a bit odd to argue that media influence is not a major factor in accounting for people's view of Corbyn. And when I say 'a bit odd', I mean completely counter-factual and extremely obdurate.
5 x

LowlifeDes
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 1226
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by LowlifeDes » 7 months ago

Apparently people don't really want this sort of thing
Screenshot_20191214-153836.png
but Jeremy Corbyn looks like a geography teacher, so they chose it as the lesser of two evils
5 x

Mister Paul
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 341
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by Mister Paul » 7 months ago

When are people going to realise that Katie Hopkins isn't even a thing?
1 x

ransos
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by ransos » 7 months ago

Iris wrote:
7 months ago
Follow the link in the article. That particular claim derives from an opinion poll in which a very specific question was asked.

There is only one man to blame for the widespread contempt in which Corbyn is held. His name is Jeremy Corbyn.
Do leave off. I'm very far from a card-carrying Corbynite, but it's beyond obtuse to maintain that he is the sole author of his misfortune.
2 x

User avatar
Joan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by Joan » 7 months ago

Mister Paul wrote:
7 months ago
When are people going to realise that Katie Hopkins isn't even a thing?
Sad fact: as I don't do twitter, Facebook or watch reality TV, the only reason I know who she is is cycling fora.
1 x

User avatar
JohnToo
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 511
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Leatherhead

Re: UK politics

Post by JohnToo » 7 months ago

Iris wrote:
7 months ago
Follow the link in the article. That particular claim derives from an opinion poll in which a very specific question was asked.

There is only one man to blame for the widespread contempt in which Corbyn is held. His name is Jeremy Corbyn.
May I very respectfully suggest that any analysis of the situation that runs "there is only one X to blame" may serve a useful emotional purpose but is nevertheless not exactly the sort of reasonable analysis we rather desperately need to foster right now?

edit: didn't see Ransos's before pressing submit.
3 x

User avatar
JohnToo
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 511
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Leatherhead

Re: UK politics

Post by JohnToo » 7 months ago

I also think that much of the analysis erroneously assumes that the public perception of a politician is fixed. That overlooks how Corbyn's brand of straightforward speaking, manifestly having principles and sticking to them, and not being a Westminster greasy pole climber, were perceived as an asset in the last election, in which Labour did far better than almost anyone predicted. Corbyn failed in this election, but to assume that that failure was always inevitable is too simplistic.
3 x

ransos
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by ransos » 7 months ago

JohnToo wrote:
7 months ago
May I very respectfully suggest that any analysis of the situation that runs "there is only one X to blame" may serve a useful emotional purpose but is nevertheless not exactly the sort of reasonable analysis we rather desperately need to foster right now?

edit: didn't see Ransos's before pressing submit.
Yeah, but you said it nicer.
0 x

Iris
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 698
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by Iris » 7 months ago

The Real Ravenhurst wrote:
7 months ago
it's a bit odd to argue that media influence is not a major factor in accounting for people's view of Corbyn.
JohnToo wrote:
7 months ago
May I very respectfully suggest that any analysis of the situation that runs "there is only one X to blame" may serve a useful emotional purpose but is nevertheless not exactly the sort of reasonable analysis we rather desperately need to foster right now?
ransos wrote:
7 months ago
Do leave off. I'm very far from a card-carrying Corbynite, but it's beyond obtuse to maintain that he is the sole author of his misfortune.
If I was claiming that Corbyn was the sole author of his misfortune or claiming that media influence was not a factor in people's view of him or blaming him for everything these would be reasonable things to say.

But I'm not. I'm simply observing that one the important starting points of any analysis has to be that Corbyn, as a leader, is more than a bit shit - and it's entirely his fault that he's more than a bit shit, and it's his being more than a bit shit that underlies what people think about it. Which, incidentally, is exactly what the Chakrabortty and Younge articles in today's party that @TRR is presumably alluding to also say - although in both cases using rather more diplomatic language.

As has been observed here before, phones don't lend themselves to neatly composed sentences with all the caveats and hedges and "it's a bit more complicated than that"s one might want. I'd rather hope that all those things can be assumed when you're engaging with someone you've spent a number of years engaging with...
0 x

User avatar
JohnToo
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 511
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Leatherhead

Re: UK politics

Post by JohnToo » 7 months ago

ransos wrote:
7 months ago
Yeah, but you said it nicer.
Yeah, that's cos I is retired and have all the time in the world to refine my already verbose prose style, whereas you are a working man :)
1 x

ransos
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 324
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by ransos » 7 months ago

@@Iris I'm engaging with what you actually said rather than what you claim to have said. I would've hoped that three people picking you up on the same issue might've given you some pause for thought, but experience tells me that your blinkered credentials are far too well established for that.
0 x

Iris
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 698
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by Iris » 7 months ago

JohnToo wrote:
7 months ago
It overlooks the lunge into populism (and the associated traits of lies and racism and so forth) of the Conservatives, and the changed mood of the electorate, or swathes of it, that made them willing to vote for an openly and nakedly right-wing populist agenda. It's the evil forces in society unleashed by Thatcher having taken root and become what our society is. Faced with that, I am not nearly so sure that any other Labour leader would have had the walk-over suggested.
I've just had a look at the wikipedia article on the 1997 election. It's reminded me that one of the key characters of that election was James Goldsmith's Referendum party - he was as populist and unpleasant a character as Farage. And that there were very substantial parts of the Tory party, including then Home Secretary Michael Howard, who followed him into the gutter - remember "New Labour, New Danger"? The reason the "Portillo moment" was so key was because Portillo was a right-wing populist extremist. Open and nakedly right-wing populism is nothing new, and it wasn't Thatcher that set off those evil forces.

My strong suspicion is that in 2017 Corbyn did better than expected not just because people liked his policies, but because voting for Labour was the best way of trying to register an anti-Brexit vote. And my very strong suspicion is that in 2019 Johnson has done better than expected not because people have suddenly changed to be right-wing extremists but because - as @TRR observed from her canvassing - "Get Brexit Done" was really very important to a lot of people. I don't suppose that Sedgefield has suddenly become a hotbed of individuliast Conservatism - but given the choice of "Get Brexit Done" and "40 more hospitals" or "Well, it's a bit like this - and here's another new bright idea, and we might or might not do Brexit" they plumped for the right-wing populist who gave the impression of having a coherent story rather than the left-wing one who didn't.
0 x

Iris
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 698
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by Iris » 7 months ago

ransos wrote:
7 months ago
@@Iris I'm engaging with what you actually said rather than what you claim to have said. I would've hoped that three people picking you up on the same issue might've given you some pause for thought, but experience tells me that your blinkered credentials are far too well established for that.
Perhaps three people made some unwarranted assumptions based on their own view of the world and their own assumptions about what I was saying? Certainly three people seem to have read some quite complicated stuff into what was a very simple howl of rage about someone who the voters of the UK decided wasn't the right person to be PM.
0 x

LowlifeDes
Hero Member
Hero Member
Posts: 1226
Joined: 2 years ago

Re: UK politics

Post by LowlifeDes » 7 months ago

Iris wrote:
7 months ago
Perhaps three people made some unwarranted assumptions based on their own view of the world and their own assumptions about what I was saying? Certainly three people seem to have read some quite complicated stuff into what was a very simple howl of rage about someone who the voters of the UK decided wasn't the right person to be PM.
If you had acknowledged the degree to which that decision had been lead by interested parties, it might have been different.
0 x

Post Reply