Bollocks to Brexit

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LowlifeDes
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by LowlifeDes » 2 weeks ago

Iris wrote:
2 weeks ago
Yes, that's what you said last night. It's a fine position for those of us with the luxury of not having to make decisions. But democratic politics is all about compromise. The job of parliament is now to compromise to make the least worst decision.
What form of compromise can any remain supporter offer, that doesn't involve leaving?
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Sonic Budgie
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by Sonic Budgie » 2 weeks ago

ransos wrote:
2 weeks ago
Who's ignoring it? That many or even most Tories are behaving like petulant children doesn't excuse Remain MPs.

Whilst I would much prefer to remain, I applaud Clark, Grieve, Boles, Cooper, Letwin, Benn, et al, for trying to break the deadlock.
I agree. I've been considering my post and I may be mixing my social medias somewhat. Had the TIGs and the Green supported, for example, Clark then it would have passed, but although there certainly can be a finger pointed in their general direction there's a couple of handfuls which can be pointed at the 200+ Torys that voted no to everything. If my maths is correct, just two of their number voting the other way and at least something would have gone through. There appears, to me at least, to be rather more being made out of one side not compromising than there is of the other.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by JohnToo » 2 weeks ago

LowlifeDes wrote:
2 weeks ago
What form of compromise can any remain supporter offer, that doesn't involve leaving?
Is it the principle of belonging in Europe that matters or the function?

If it's a point of principle, your logic is impeccable, no compromise is possible. If it's about the practical effect, then customs union and common market 2.0 both seem to be compromises.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

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Rutabaga
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by Rutabaga » 2 weeks ago

Surely revoking A50 is a way of putting us back where we were before, while keeping the option of leaving in future open? The leavers would not have lost anything, and a reasoned debate would then be possible without the unfair weight of compromise on one side that LowLifeDes rightly indicates.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by ransos » 2 weeks ago

LowlifeDes wrote:
2 weeks ago
What form of compromise can any remain supporter offer, that doesn't involve leaving?
It depends on how you look at it. Literally, you are correct, but leaving with membership of the CU and SM would not make any noticeable difference to the vast majority of the population.

The morning after the referendum, I took the view that we needed to respect the result, whilst making the best of a bad situation. That view hasn't changed.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by ransos » 2 weeks ago

Sonic Budgie wrote:
2 weeks ago
I agree. I've been considering my post and I may be mixing my social medias somewhat. Had the TIGs and the Green supported, for example, Clark then it would have passed, but although there certainly can be a finger pointed in their general direction there's a couple of handfuls which can be pointed at the 200+ Torys that voted no to everything. If my maths is correct, just two of their number voting the other way and at least something would have gone through. There appears, to me at least, to be rather more being made out of one side not compromising than there is of the other.
Oh, I agree entirely. My point is only that the ardent leavers are not going to stop being dickheads, so it's up to others to be grownups.
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Greg
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by Greg » 2 weeks ago

Some overhead quotes from leavers on the train on Friday....

"I voted leave fpr my kids, not for me"
"Nigel Farage has been dibbing in and out of that march"
"The remain protest had around 300,000 not a million, the BBC lies"

Dickheads.
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Sonic Budgie
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by Sonic Budgie » 2 weeks ago

ransos wrote:
2 weeks ago
Oh, I agree entirely. My point is only that the ardent leavers are not going to stop being dickheads, so it's up to others to be grownups.
Possibly yes. It is rather a sad state of affairs though where those that are utterly unmovable like the ERG, DUP and May have to, at least to a degree, be pandered to. Sometimes grown ups need to tell dickheads that not only can they not have some of what they want but that they can't have any of what they want because it's bad for other people.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by LowlifeDes » 2 weeks ago

The problem is that this isn't even really about Brexit. At the leave rally last Friday, there was a woman with a megaphone who was talking to police officers through it. She said that we had to do something about the people abusing our children and that's why we voted out. My understanding of what she was saying is that she believes that our membership of the EU prevents us dealing with Muslims and that, once we leave we will be able to.
There are evil people, both in and out of our country, manipulating this stuff for their personal and political ends. Our membership of the EU is important because it has a civilising influence on our society, and it is important to retain it in full. The other option is that we become a darker, nastier country.
The tragedy in all this is that none of the issues which fuelled a lot of the leave vote are being addressed, nor does there appear to be any will to address them.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by ransos » 2 weeks ago

But we are members of the EU, and remaining so will not make these problems go away.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by Rutabaga » 2 weeks ago

ransos wrote:
2 weeks ago
But we are members of the EU, and remaining so will not make these problems go away.
And so we might as well leave? You seem to be saying that it's no big deal, as for most people nothing will change, which strikes me as extraordinarily naïve.
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by LowlifeDes » 2 weeks ago

ransos wrote:
2 weeks ago
But we are members of the EU, and remaining so will not make these problems go away.

They might, if we were to take notice of them and then seek to address them. As it stands though, those issues are being cynically harnessed for a purpose and, once that purpose is served, they will be ignored again. How would this help anything?
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by Regulator » 2 weeks ago

ransos wrote:
2 weeks ago
But we are members of the EU, and remaining so will not make these problems go away.

That assumes that these problems are real. Just how many EU nationals come to the UK, to use the example given in the embedded post, purely to claim benefits or access free healthcare?

I know from the healthcare perspective that the number is miniscule - and that there are probably more ineligible Brits gaming the NHS than people from EU member states.
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LowlifeDes
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Re: Bollocks to Brexit

Post by LowlifeDes » 2 weeks ago

Regulator wrote:
2 weeks ago
That assumes that these problems are real. Just how many EU nationals come to the UK, to use the example given in the embedded post, purely to claim benefits or access free healthcare?

I know from the healthcare perspective that the number is miniscule - and that there are probably more ineligible Brits gaming the NHS than people from EU member states.
True that this may be, we are not talking about healthcare. We are talking about the rifts in our society.
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