Cycling Related

Rutabaga wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And so we might as well leave? You seem to be saying that it's no big deal, as for most people nothing will change, which strikes me as extraordinarily naïve.

That's an extraordinary leap from what I actually said.

LowlifeDes wrote: ↑

5 years ago

They might, if we were to take notice of them and then seek to address them. As it stands though, those issues are being cynically harnessed for a purpose and, once that purpose is served, they will be ignored again. How would this help anything?

It won't, and I haven't argued otherwise. But you must surely accept that there are significant divisions in other countries that are not planning to leave the EU.

ransos wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It won't, and I haven't argued otherwise. But you must surely accept that there are significant divisions in other countries that are not planning to leave the EU.

There are, but it would appear that some of those rifts and divisions are being caused by the same propaganda and possibly even funded, advised and influenced by the same individuals and states. It is to our shame that we have allowed ourselves to become enthralled and even controlled by them.

You did say

ransos wrote: ↑

5 years ago

leaving with membership of the CU and SM would not make any noticeable difference to the vast majority of the population.

ransos wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It depends on how you look at it. Literally, you are correct, but leaving with membership of the CU and SM would not make any noticeable difference to the vast majority of the population.

The morning after the referendum, I took the view that we needed to respect the result, whilst making the best of a bad situation. That view hasn't changed.

It's not, on the whole, the Remainers who are refusing to give way on continued membership of the CU and SM but the Brexiteers...

Regulator wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It's not, on the whole, the Remainers who are refusing to give way on continued membership of the CU and SM but the Brexiteers...

I don't think that's true. Those options would've passed yesterday if Remainers had come together.

LowlifeDes wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You did say

I did. What of it?

ransos wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I did. What of it?

You are missing all the other things that our membership gives us, which those people behind Brexit would gladly take away once they can.

LowlifeDes wrote: ↑

5 years ago

You are missing all the other things that our membership gives us, which those people behind Brexit would gladly take away once they can.

You are arguing against a view I do not hold. I have never argued that a compromise, such as CU + SM membership, gives us every benefit of the EU. I am arguing that it's a pragmatic solution that would most likely not be noticeable on a day-to-day basis, to most people. I am also arguing that the forces precipitating Brexit are also prevalent in large swathes of the EU - Five Star, Front Nationale, AfD - and require addressing irrespective of continued membership or not.

As a wider point, what I'm seeing in this thread is a tendency to mirror the increasing entrenchment in society and parliament. Perhaps we get the MPs we deserve.

My position on this is entrenched, and I am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it. There are moments in history for people to be on one side or another, and I think that this is one of them.

LowlifeDes wrote: ↑

5 years ago

My position on this is entrenched, and I am not in the slightest bit ashamed of it. There are moments in history for people to be on one side or another, and I think that this is one of them.

And that, in a nutshell, is why we're at an impasse.

ransos wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And that, in a nutshell, is why we're at an impasse.

Not really. We are not at an impasse because of my intransigence in not wishing to accept something which will negatively effect just about everybody in the UK, including of course less opportunities for children than their parents enjoyed, which to me is utterly unacceptable. We are at an impasse because we had a binary referendum offering an undefined prize, carried out in an illegal and morally bankrupt manner.

ransos wrote: ↑

5 years ago

And that, in a nutshell, is why we're at an impasse.

I can't agree with that, or with the idea that your pragmatic solution will mean most people will not notice any difference. I find it extraordinary that you would believe this after all the evidence that has been offered to the contrary. I would begin to outline it to you all over again, but I have a feeling that would not go down well. Sonic has it right on the nail.

Rutabaga wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I can't agree with that, or with the idea that your pragmatic solution will mean most people will not notice any difference. I find it extraordinary that you would believe this after all the evidence that has been offered to the contrary. I would begin to outline it to you all over again, but I have a feeling that would not go down well. Sonic has it right on the nail.

Gosh, how perceptive of you to understand that patronizing me might not go down well.

Sonic Budgie wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Not really. We are not at an impasse because of my intransigence in not wishing to accept something which will negatively effect just about everybody in the UK, including of course less opportunities for children than their parents enjoyed, which to me is utterly unacceptable. We are at an impasse because we had a binary referendum offering an undefined prize, carried out in an illegal and morally bankrupt manner.

What makes you think I wish to accept it? Nevertheless, we are where we are, for reasons that go rather deeper than the way in which the referendum was conducted. I haven't gone back through all of this thread, but I don't recall any serious attempt to describe what a better EU looks like, nor why people might be persuaded to support it.

Remainers can carry on telling themselves that they're right, but the EU is just a convenient hook for populists, and until the underlying causes of their support are addressed, it's difficult to see how we move on as a country.