Gender etc

[JohnToo]

Is there any appetite to talk about feminism, sexuality, gender and so on here?

I occasionally weigh in on another forum, not because I feel I am an expert or have any great insights to offer, but because I benefit from hearing the debate unfold, and I learn, particularly when people who really do understand the current cutting edge of the debate (looking at you, the real ravenshurst) join in.

It would be nice to think it’s possible to debate the issues politely but robustly and intelligently.

So here are some offerings in case anyone is interested in the debate:

The prevailing distinction between sex and gender is oversimplified and becoming unhelpful?

It is simply not possible to square the best interests of trans women and cis women?

We allow the whole debate to be too much about what genitalia people have and what they do with them, which is only part of sexuality?

Fate, or genetics, or whatever, delivers some people a bad deal and try as we might (and should) it’s not always possible to overcome the starting point?

We allow ourselves to be distracted from the depressing fact that the big battles for equality and justice are still only partially and patchily won?

White, male(ish), straight(ish) men should on the whole shut up?

[Rutabaga]

I'd say yes, there is an appetite to talk about this subject, along with many others. However, for me, there is no appetite at all to stir up the kind of vituperative responses that were seen on that other forum as well as elsewhere.

In the meantime, on Channel 4 next Wednesday (Nov 21st) at 10pm, Stella O'Malley suggests It's Time To Talk about our attitudes to young people being encourage to "transition", based on her own experiences in her teens. Worth a watch.

[Rocky]

My take on this comes from (personal) experience. Two dear friends of mine have transitioned over the last decade. Both went through major struggles in adolescence and adulthood realising that they were women born in mens bodies. Both were married, one had three children. After transitioning they have stayed in their respective relationships. Both are far happier now and much more confident in themselves.

What I take from this is the hurt, confusion, mental health problems that both these women went through. I am just pleased that are now more comfortable with life and their lives. When I think of the hurt that was caused by society's norms, I think it is time to rethink our views.

[JohnToo]

My take on this comes from (personal) experience. Two dear friends of mine have transitioned over the last decade. Both went through major struggles in adolescence and adulthood realising that they were women born in mens bodies. Both were married, one had three children. After transitioning they have stayed in their respective relationships. Both are far happier now and much more confident in themselves.

What I take from this is the hurt, confusion, mental health problems that both these women went through. I am just pleased that are now more comfortable with life and their lives. When I think of the hurt that was caused by society's norms, I think it is time to rethink our views.

In the past, we cruelly made it so hard to transition that that the only people who made it tended to be people it was obviously right for.

We absolutely needed to make it easier because the pain and suffering inflicted by the lack of understanding and the hoops we erected was appalling.

As we try to make it less hard, I sense that gives rise to the expressed concern that we make it too easy, and hence the concerns (a) that adolescents might be guided through transition when their sexuality/gender is not yet fixed enough and (b) that some men might abuse the process to facilitate abusing women.

I really can’t judge from my personal experience whether those are genuine concerns or hysterical overreaction. I’m glad when people who need to are enabled to transition but I don’t know where the balance should be struck.

[Rocky]

I'm no expert and have only given really considered this because of my friends' experiences. I did get the sense that the UK was getting more accepting of diversity but with the rise of right wing bully boy populism, I fear we are back tracking into a less kind society.

In terms of the timing of when young people should be allowed to transition - I don't think it's appropriate to have hard and fast rules. I suppose the equivalent is Gillick competence - it depends on the young person. Who should be party to the decision? The person and their clinician, obviously, but who else? I don't know. I just look forward to the day when we accept difference and diversity as the norm....but I fear we are a long way away from that. A practical concern is that the appropriate services and health care support won't be available due to the ghastly financial situation we are likely to find ourselves in from March next year.

[The Real Ravenhurst]

Is there any appetite to talk about feminism, sexuality, gender and so on here?

I occasionally weigh in on another forum, not because I feel I am an expert or have any great insights to offer, but because I benefit from hearing the debate unfold, and I learn, particularly when people who really do understand the current cutting edge of the debate (looking at you, the real ravenshurst) join in.

It would be nice to think it’s possible to debate the issues politely but robustly and intelligently.

There certainly is an appetite. I meant to reply to your post over the road, John, but got caught up in work stuff. Am travelling now and don't fancy making lengthy phone posts, so I'll probably bang on at greater length later if it still feels necessary.

Thanks for the heads-up on the programme, Rutabaga. Has Crinkly disappeared? I miss her input on subjects like this.

[The Real Ravenhurst]

I might just add that I watched the ITV drama Butterfly a few weeks ago, and it made me so angry I nearly binned my only-recently-acquired telly. Then I remembered that I only watched it because I was interested in the subject matter, I knew exactly what its angle was going to be, and most prime-time British drama makes me angry anyway, so hoping to enjoy it was a bit like an animal rights activist going hopefully to a bullfight and, I calmed down again.

[Rutabaga]

I might just add that I watched the ITV drama Butterfly a few weeks ago, and it made me so angry I nearly binned my only-recently-acquired telly. Then I remembered that I only watched it because I was interested in the subject matter, I knew exactly what its angle was going to be, and most prime-time British drama makes me angry anyway, so hoping to enjoy it was a bit like an animal rights activist going hopefully to a bullfight and, I calmed down again.

Having had a telly for donkey's years I know not to bother with issue-led dramas like that one, so I didn't watch any of it. Sure enough, it sounded dire if the critics are anything to go by.

I miss Crinkly too, I do hope she is too busy having a great life to bother with forums.