TINGE to CHANGE

Not cycling, but still important.
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The Real Ravenhurst
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by The Real Ravenhurst » 1 month ago

Iris wrote:
1 month ago
Will you let us know if you see *any* posters in windows?

The Labour leaflet is equally terrible - the only reference to the fact it's an EU election is the claim that Labour will get "A better deal with Europe". Which is so much fantasy. At least the Lib Dems and the Greens are nailing their colours to the mast and recognise that this isn't a national election.
I've had Labour, Plaid, Tinge and UKIP leaflets so far, so I can't judge the others, but the Tingers' was stand-out shoddy. The Welsh thing is interesting - Plaid have Welsh first, equal weighting; Labour English first, equal weighting; UKIP English only and Tinge English with selfies of wankers and a half-arsed attempt to pretend they give a fuck about Welsh. I'd have thought the extremely remainy Plaid-voting constituency which will bin their leaflet would have been important to them. But of course no actual voters' interests matter to them at all.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Iris » 1 month ago

The Real Ravenhurst wrote:
1 month ago
But of course no actual voters' interests matter to them at all.
Insert pithy comment that ransos would no doubt describe as whataboutery again....

I'm pissed off at CUK. Politics, and the two big parties in particular, desperately need a proper kick up the arse, and for a while it looked as if it was possible that Umunna and co would provide it - and I realise that the confirmation bias of a number of you means that I've instantly lost credibility by saying so. But they have gone from forgivably crap because they were new to unforgivably crap and ready to die.

The policy outline was exactly the sort of thing the great mass of the unaligned educated broad middle class centrists - which is still by far the largest group of people in the UK - should have gone for.

In the meantime we've got the Farage fanclub, who don't even have a single policy, splintering the Tories. And completely unexpectedly the Lib Dems have found a mojo and along with the greens are utterly shredding Labour support. I would be unsurprised to see them as second largest share of the vote next week.

As for who best serves voters' interests in the EU elections? It's giving as large a share of the vote as possible to parties who promise to reverse Brexit, and giving as big a kicking as humanly possible to Farage, the kippers, the Tories and Labour. A vote for any of those is now a vote for no-deal Brexit and national economic and social meltdown.
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The Real Ravenhurst
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by The Real Ravenhurst » 1 month ago

Iris wrote:
1 month ago
Insert pithy comment that ransos would no doubt describe as whataboutery again....

I'm pissed off at CUK. Politics, and the two big parties in particular, desperately need a proper kick up the arse, and for a while it looked as if it was possible that Umunna and co would provide it - and I realise that the confirmation bias of a number of you means that I've instantly lost credibility by saying so. But they have gone from forgivably crap because they were new to unforgivably crap and ready to die.

The policy outline was exactly the sort of thing the great mass of the unaligned educated broad middle class centrists - which is still by far the largest group of people in the UK - should have gone for.

In the meantime we've got the Farage fanclub, who don't even have a single policy, splintering the Tories. And completely unexpectedly the Lib Dems have found a mojo and along with the greens are utterly shredding Labour support. I would be unsurprised to see them as second largest share of the vote next week.

As for who best serves voters' interests in the EU elections? It's giving as large a share of the vote as possible to parties who promise to reverse Brexit, and giving as big a kicking as humanly possible to Farage, the kippers, the Tories and Labour. A vote for any of those is now a vote for no-deal Brexit and national economic and social meltdown.
I'm pissed off with them as well. It's nice to agree on something political. Mind you, I've been pissed off with them since before they existed.

Re the middle-class centrists point (and this is a genuine question aimed at you in your Mista Numbaz hat) - is that true?
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The Real Ravenhurst
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by The Real Ravenhurst » 1 month ago

Being the 'largest group of people in the UK', I mean.
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Iris
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Iris » 1 month ago

You want me to justify a statement? What are you? Some kind of moderator?
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Iris » 1 month ago

RIght. I've now had dinner and watched Wednesday's Taskmaster.

The middle classes are the biggest group: https://www.ukgeographics.co.uk/blog/so ... -c1-c2-d-e

ABC1 is 52% of the population, which is the "classic" middle class definition - although increasingly "skilled manual" occupations need the same sort of calibre of skills as many office-based occupations (think gas fitter or engineer), and there will be increasingly many graduates in the C2DE population.

Education level: graduates, at over 40% are now by far the largest group of people not currently in education (and I can't just paste. Grrr)
Capture.JPG
And the proportion of graduates is growing fast:
Capture.JPG
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlab ... arket/2017

There's an obvious and well-established correlation between education level and willingness to accept that others with a different point of view have something to contribute, which is what I rather suspect underlies what some people really mean when they talk about "centrism".

As for actual political views, it's impossible to tell. But if you use a definition of "centrism" which is quite literal - i.e. in the centre of distribution of opinions, then except where this a big binary divide (i.e. on Brexit) it's all but mathematically inevitable that lots of people are centrists. I could invoke the Central Limit Theorem, but I suspect that wouldn't really help.

[edit: I've failed on embedding the pictures. Sorry]
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by JohnToo » 1 month ago

Iris wrote:
1 month ago
...

As for who best serves voters' interests in the EU elections? It's giving as large a share of the vote as possible to parties who promise to reverse Brexit, and giving as big a kicking as humanly possible to Farage, the kippers, the Tories and Labour. A vote for any of those is now a vote for no-deal Brexit and national economic and social meltdown.
I will probably still vote Labour. I don't regard that as a vote for no deal Brexit. I regard it (i.e. a strong Labour party) as the most hopeful (out of a poor selection of alternatives) long-term strategic option for resisting Farage/Johnson/Rees Mogg.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by ransos » 4 weeks ago

JohnToo wrote:
1 month ago
I will probably still vote Labour. I don't regard that as a vote for no deal Brexit. I regard it (i.e. a strong Labour party) as the most hopeful (out of a poor selection of alternatives) long-term strategic option for resisting Farage/Johnson/Rees Mogg.
I'm likely to vote Green: they have a good chance of winning a seat in the SW, and I generally find myself in agreement with Molly Scott Cato.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Rutabaga » 4 weeks ago

JohnToo wrote:
1 month ago
I will probably still vote Labour. I don't regard that as a vote for no deal Brexit. I regard it (i.e. a strong Labour party) as the most hopeful (out of a poor selection of alternatives) long-term strategic option for resisting Farage/Johnson/Rees Mogg.
If this was a general election I'd agree with that, but as it isn't I find myself reluctantly unable to support Labour. I will vote Green, in the hope of being represented in Europe by someone who wholeheartedly supports Europe, rather than being halfhearted about it and really preferring to be out.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Dunckel » 4 weeks ago

Rutabaga wrote:
4 weeks ago
If this was a general election I'd agree with that, but as it isn't I find myself reluctantly unable to support Labour. I will vote Green, in the hope of being represented in Europe by someone who wholeheartedly supports Europe, rather than being halfhearted about it and really preferring to be out.
I agree, we need to treat this as a straight binary vote. Any vote for the Tories or Labour gives them a validation to carry on the way they are, and by God they will grasp that any way they can. I will vote Lib Dem, because that is the right choice here - I would certainly go green if that made sense in this constituency.

Next Thursday I will be in Berlin, so there may be some interesting conversations there, but hopefully I will be home by 8pm and make my point.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Iris » 4 weeks ago

Anyone who votes Labour on Thursday shouldn't be surprised when Corbyn - as he inevitably will, whatever the outcome short of an absolute washout, cites the result as an argument that the country just wants to get on with Brexit. Whatever your views on current Labour policy or the current approach shown by those supposedly leading the party (and that's a subject for a different thread) the party is enabling Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson.

The choice of which specific pro-EU party to vote for isn't a local constituency choice, it's a regional choice - which makes it a tricky one outside of Wales, NI and Scotland - where the local nationalists are the best bet. I think the breakup of the UK will make us all weaker, but in Scotland or Wales, just for this election, I would cheerfully lend Plaid or the SNP a vote.

In the SouthEast, despite the fact that Brighton is in the region, I can't see that there is any argument for a Green vote, unfortunately. Purely pragmatically I'll be voting Lib Dem. In most of the SouthEast of England people are conservative, and there aren't enough deep enough Greens across the region for them to have made an impact.

The same is probably even more true in the SouthWest, where the Lib Dems have a large historic base, and have now secured control of several councils. I just don't think the Green strength in Bristol translates further south.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by ransos » 4 weeks ago

Err, we already have a Green MEP in the SW.
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Iris
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Iris » 4 weeks ago

ransos wrote:
4 weeks ago
Err, we already have a Green MEP in the SW.
Elected in 2014 when the Lib Dems were wiped out nationally, and who scraped in by 6,000 votes above the Lib Dems. Things have changed now. Over the years there have been many more Lib Dem MEPs than Green MEPs from SW England - even before PR.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Rutabaga » 4 weeks ago

I can't bring myself to vote for those LibDem scumbags, ever since Norman Baker stood on my doorstep in the Lewes constituency and promised that a vote for him would 'keep the Tories out', the lying unprincipled little toad. I'd vote Tory before I ever vote for them, i.e., never.
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Re: TINGE to CHANGE

Post by Rocky » 4 weeks ago

I’m voting LibDems here in Oxford to keep the Tories out. If I thought the Greens stood a better chance, I’d vote for them.
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