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Re: UK politics
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:49 am
by Mister Paul
"Are you hopeless Mr Hancock?"
"I don't think so"
Re: UK politics
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:19 am
by Rutabaga
Much as it's always delightful to see a Tory defeated, I wish it had been by someone other than what I believe to be a Tory wearing a yellow rosette. I admit to being utterly prejudiced against the LibDems, due to being lied to once by their local candidate and so making the huge mistake of voting for them then against my better judgement.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:24 pm
by Iris
Wikipedia is reporting that she's been an active liberal democrat since university, and has stood a couple of times for the Lib Dems before. A successful candidate here was never going to be anything other than reasonably conservative economically.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:08 am
by Rutabaga
I think you might have missed my point. The party she has been active in for however many years (who cares?) has done more than most to facilitate Tory success, not least the social crime of "Austerity". I don't see their victory here as much of a triumph.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:39 pm
by Iris
I understood your point, but I fundamentally disagree with it. Austerity was moderated by being implented by a coalition government, and then the Labour party went and chose a leader who wasn't fit for office, enabling the worst PM in my lifetime to be elected.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:09 pm
by LowlifeDes
The lib Dems may, or may not, have moderated austerity. The did have an alternative option though. They could have chosen to moderate some of Gordon Brown's more extreme left wing policies instead.
They chose what they chose and, in consequence, are not getting any trust or benefit of any doubt from me.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:52 pm
by Iris
Mathematically a rainbow coalition with the non-Conservative parties was almost impossible - it would have required very nearly every single MP from Labour and the LDs and Plaid and the SNP and the Greens and the (NI) Alliance and the SDLP to support Brown to beat the combined Tories plus DUP, even allowing for the fact that
I was shocked with the speed with which the LDs entered into coalition with Cameron, but once the emotion drained out and the logic started kicking in it really was the only way to avoid a minority government.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:08 pm
by JohnToo
It's not just austerity though is it. There's a clear line through Nick Clegg - tuition fees - politicians blatantly demonstrating they can't be trusted - cynicism about politics - Brexit (not saying it's solely his fault before anyone misquotes me, just a contributor). Setting the cause of PR back a generation. And Facebook VP seems to me just as corrosive of trust in politicians as the things Blair and Cameron have done post-office.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:25 pm
by Mister Paul
I think that the first thing that needs to be ripped out of politics right now is this culture of being detached from reality. Al and his mates think they're in some kind of performance. Take Rees Mogg and his comments last week about Hancock. It's like watching the two actors in that episode of Blackadder 3. And Boris laughs everything off, or sticks his thumbs up, shouts "onwards to victory!" and runs out of the meeting.
I can think of plenty of previous politicians that I disagreed with but still respected the fact that they could and would engage.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:19 am
by Iris
JohnToo wrote: ↑2 years ago
It's not just austerity though is it. There's a clear line through Nick Clegg - tuition fees - politicians blatantly demonstrating they can't be trusted - cynicism about politics - Brexit (not saying it's solely his fault before anyone misquotes me, just a contributor). Setting the cause of PR back a generation. And Facebook VP seems to me just as corrosive of trust in politicians as the things Blair and Cameron have done post-office.
It's very odd that of all of the broken promises by politicians (every single politician who's ever held any kind of power has broken some kind of promise) it's Clegg's tuition fee promise that is still salient for people who are looking for a reason not to support his former party. Certain Labour party supporters seem to have forgiven Labour for some of Messrs Blair's and Brown's broken promises and post-office deeds while deciding that that one thing means they will never trust the LDs again.
This is the reality of coalition politics and PR in action - some of what you promise to get elected has to be negotiated away.
A lot of people are saying that it was the planning bill that cost the Tories last week's byelection. My best guess is that that's the same kind of partial truth as quoting Clegg's tuition fee promise - there were lots of voters looking for a reason not to vote for [x party], and grateful that there is something they can pick on.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:00 pm
by LowlifeDes
The Lib Dems voluntarily became lapdogs of the Tories. I really don't need to look for reasons not to vote for them.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:56 am
by JohnToo
Iris wrote: ↑2 years ago
It's very odd that of all of the broken promises by politicians (every single politician who's ever held any kind of power has broken some kind of promise) it's Clegg's tuition fee promise that is still salient for people who are looking for a reason not to support his former party. Certain Labour party supporters seem to have forgiven Labour for some of Messrs Blair's and Brown's broken promises and post-office deeds while deciding that that one thing means they will never trust the LDs again.
This is the reality of coalition politics and PR in action - some of what you promise to get elected has to be negotiated away.
A lot of people are saying that it was the planning bill that cost the Tories last week's byelection. My best guess is that that's the same kind of partial truth as quoting Clegg's tuition fee promise - there were lots of voters looking for a reason not to vote for [x party], and grateful that there is something they can pick on.
With respect, I think you're missing the point about tuition fees. Everyone accepts that manifestos are a statement of inent that is likely to be flexed, modified, forgotten, or just plain fallen short of in the reality of government. Clegg elevated tuition fees above mere manifesto: he directly said to the electorate, I promise you that these are things we will absolutely deliver come what may. Then promptly broke that promise.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:51 am
by Iris
JohnToo wrote: ↑2 years ago
he directly said to the electorate, I promise you that these are things we will absolutely deliver come what may.
...which is a very accurate definition of a manifesto.
It's illogical to both support PR and complain when a coalition forces promises to be abandoned.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:04 am
by Iris
Oh fuck.
Re: UK politics
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:09 am
by Mister Paul
Staggered