Bollocks to Brexit

[Greg]

How confident is anyone that we (remain) would actually win a third referendum?

..ish...

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/i ... ou-vote-2/

[LowlifeDes]

How confident is anyone that we (remain) would actually win a third referendum?

It depends on the arguments employed. Remain tends towards the more rational view, and leave the more visceral. Any remain campaign, based on rational argument, is no more likely to sway people this time when they were not persuaded by reason last time.
There are issues at play where a significant number of people cast their vote for reasons that were not connected with the UK's relationship with the EU. Those reasons remain as unaddressed now as they were then.

[JohnToo]

It depends on the arguments employed. Remain tends towards the more rational view, and leave the more visceral. Any remain campaign, based on rational argument, is no more likely to sway people this time when they were not persuaded by reason last time.
There are issues at play where a significant number of people cast their vote for reasons that were not connected with the UK's relationship with the EU. Those reasons remain as unaddressed now as they were then.

Quite.

The one or two mild attempts I have made here to explore legitimate left wing reasons for disliking the EU have been slapped down by remainders. That seems to me not to bode well for fighting a campaign that engages with the issues that voters have. And not engaging with the issues voters have doesn’t bode well for winning

[Iris]

How confident is anyone that we (remain) would actually win a third referendum?

How confident would anyone have been 3 years ago that Ireland would vote in referendums to legalise abortion and same-sex marriage? Both are even more theological than Brexit.

But they decided to both educate and trust the people, not shying away from exploring very challenging underlying emotional and factual issues, including those which are challenging to liberals.

I'm very confident that if we went about it in the right way we'd get the right result.

[Regulator]

Quite.

The one or two mild attempts I have made here to explore legitimate left wing reasons for disliking the EU have been slapped down by remainders. That seems to me not to bode well for fighting a campaign that engages with the issues that voters have. And not engaging with the issues voters have doesn’t bode well for winning

Really?

I understand the reasons why some on the left of the political spectrum may dislike the EU (to a certain extent I share some of their concerns) and support the leave vote. I’ve not seen that being ‘slapped down’ on here.

[Iris]

Quite.

The one or two mild attempts I have made here to explore legitimate left wing reasons for disliking the EU have been slapped down by remainders.

That is an unfair reading of pages 3 and 4 of this thread. As soon as anyone asked you (a self-declared remainer) or anyone else to expand no reply was given. There was a reference to a manifesto mostly fit for the Kippers, and an acknowledgement that you couldn't articulate the arguments you were trying to make.

[JohnToo]

That is an unfair reading of pages 3 and 4 of this thread. As soon as anyone asked you (a self-declared remainer) or anyone else to expand no reply was given. There was a reference to a manifesto mostly fit for the Kippers, and an acknowledgement that you couldn't articulate the arguments you were trying to make.

I feel as if i’m reading a different thread to you. Mind you, after the number of Baileys I have just consumed with a colleague who is also leaving our company at our training centre in the wilds of Nottinghamshire, it is perfectly possible that I am indeed reading a different thread.

Seriously, “no reply was given”?

[Dunckel]

Mmmmmm... cheese

[LowlifeDes]

Mmmmmm... cheese

Ah yes but, what sort of cheese? A noble Stilton to go with a good vintage British port? Some Cheddar perhaps, provided it is British of course. Incidentally, we really ought to have some sort of restriction on the use of the word cheddar in connection with cheese, unless we want it to be our gift to the world

[Dunckel]

Ah yes but, what sort of cheese? A noble Stilton to go with a good vintage British port? Some Cheddar perhaps, provided it is British of course. Incidentally, we really ought to have some sort of restriction on the use of the word cheddar in connection with cheese, unless we want it to be our gift to the world

Right, this is where it gets complicated. I live on the southern corner of the Stilton triangle. Whilst Stilton is good cheese limited to only a handfull of licenses, it is not Stilton. EU rules mean that "Stilton" has to be pasturised and use Roquefort blumes, this is not the local method and was standardised to meet PDO by the European Commision.

Stichleton, a Nottinghamshire cheese using unpasturised milk and a local strain of bacterium is the closest currently produced version of true Stilton and is far superior.

http://www.stichelton.co.uk

As for Cheddar, the blocks of blended, milled, and compressed, sweaty, East European cheeses that are passed off as Cheddar by the supermarkets are an abhomination. Real Cheddar is actually quite dull

[Iris]

Seriously, “no reply was given”?

"Something must change"
"What, and how? Here are some thoughts."
"Something must change, but not that!"

That pretty much sums up the discussion as far as I was concerned.

[Iris]

Ah yes but, what sort of cheese? A noble Stilton to go with a good vintage British port? Some Cheddar perhaps, provided it is British of course. Incidentally, we really ought to have some sort of restriction on the use of the word cheddar in connection with cheese, unless we want it to be our gift to the world

"Clearly the problem with the submarine is that it's being made out of fine matured Lancashire. The people of the country are so strapped that they demand the right to set sail in a submarine made of industrial Double Gloucester. Ignore the naysayers in my party who demand a hull made of aluminium - too expensive. One day I'll get around to thinking about tactics, but in the meantime I demand an election after which I'll magic up something impossible, but I can't tell you what."

[JohnToo]

"Something must change"
"What, and how? Here are some thoughts."
"Something must change, but not that!"

That pretty much sums up the discussion as far as I was concerned.

I hope I don’t sound too defensive, but I am genuinely confused. Did I not actually post this..,

“I think what is needed goes far further than that. It includes tackling the culture of the commission (which in turn requires thinking about the sort of people who make it up, which won’t happen by accident and needs structural change), it requires thinking not just about allowing parliament to institute policy but more generally where policy does originate from, it requires thinking about the whole three-way (or five if you include the council of the regions etc) commission/parliament/council split which I think adds to the sense of inevitable momentum and lack of accountability and clarity. It requires tackling the way lobbying happens (which may require thinking about geographical location). But it also requires fundamental thinking about how far the aims of the EU require common economic approaches (think Greece, Ireland etc) which I agree is only partly structural.”

...?

[Rocky]

Too much soul searching about the EU's faults and strengths for me - particularly as the UK forfeited its influence to change them many years ago by its appalling anti-EU stance (just look at the boorish behaviour and rhetoric of Hannan and Farage as MEPs). The simple question is this - would we be better off in or out? My strong view is 'in'. Without a strong economy and close friends the UK has no influence, no money to end austerity and looks very vulnerable. As that great philosopher Joni Mitchell once sang 'you don't know what you've got till it's gone'. Well, we are about to find out.

[Rutabaga]

I hope I don’t sound too defensive, but I am genuinely confused. Did I not actually post this..,

“I think what is needed goes far further than that. It includes tackling the culture of the commission (which in turn requires thinking about the sort of people who make it up, which won’t happen by accident and needs structural change), it requires thinking not just about allowing parliament to institute policy but more generally where policy does originate from, it requires thinking about the whole three-way (or five if you include the council of the regions etc) commission/parliament/council split which I think adds to the sense of inevitable momentum and lack of accountability and clarity. It requires tackling the way lobbying happens (which may require thinking about geographical location). But it also requires fundamental thinking about how far the aims of the EU require common economic approaches (think Greece, Ireland etc) which I agree is only partly structural.”

...?

Sorry, but if you think that is going to have any effect at all in swaying a leave voter to change their opinion you really have been too much at the Baileys. What you are saying might indeed be heading in the right direction, but it misses by a country mile the reality of people who think they hate the EU but are ignorant of the good it does for them.